The Man on the Middle Cross (Interview)

Jonathan Carswell: Hi. My name’s Jonathan Carswell from 10ofThose.com, and I’m here with Alistair Begg, Bible teacher for Truth For Life and pastor. Thank you for joining us.

Alistair, if anyone’s been on the internet for the last few years, they’ve probably seen the clip of “The Man on the Middle Cross,” that illustration that you told. Would you give us a little bit of a background of that? Because it’s been seen by millions of people. Was it in your notes? Did you throw it in later? Did you think it was going to be a hit?

Alistair Begg: No. No, no. Not at all, actually. In fact, just this past weekend, I was at a place, and, you know, 50 or 80 percent of the people that came to say hello to me all said, “The man on the middle cross!” In fact, I had—in a Q and A session, a number of people had written on the card, “Would you do ‘The Man on the Middle Cross’?” Like it’s a performance piece, you know?

No, actually, I was—if truth really be told, I found myself increasingly frustrated as I was trying to get across that essential truth. And no, I didn’t have it in my notes. And I had thought it before. And I just reached for it, in a sense, out of desperation, never imagining that it would actually be the turning key for the other thirty-five minutes that I had tried to explain the Bible.

Jonathan: And even on that event, were people coming up to you afterwards and commenting? Or was there none of that?

Alistair: No, I think… You know, I think that I was so bemused by the response—particularly of the choir that was sitting behind me, who didn’t seem to be what you would call “thoroughly enthusiastic” about it—that I think I kind of skulked off away. And so I didn’t really have any sense immediately afterwards about that at all. None. Not at all, no.

Jonathan: And we’re going to talk in a moment about it becoming a small evangelistic book—a book that could be given to those who don’t yet know that they can come. But would you just explain a little bit of your thought process as you go into the pulpit? Something that I’ve noticed is, you know, you’re bringing the gospel through all the time. Obviously, a lot of your audience will be trusting in Jesus.

Alistair: Right.

Jonathan: But you always seem to be aware that there are those that aren’t. And without ever missing that, you use that opportunity. So you’re going into the pulpit prepared to do that? Or is it just… Walk us through your thought process.

Alistair: Well, when I go into the pulpit, I’m, of course, trying to say what it says in the text. And so, whatever the main thrust of it, hopefully I don’t cloud the issue.

I think there’s two things. One: In the back of my mind, all the time, I’m thinking about the person that doesn’t believe, or doesn’t get it. Like, if I was talking to a group of teenage boys, the one that was looking out the window is the one that I would be trying to draw back into the group. And that is then what causes me to sometimes say, “You know, you may be sitting here and just thinking, ‘I don’t understand a single word of what you’ve just said.’” That brings that person in. If you start from the other position, of assuming that because you’re now so clear, everybody gets it…

But no, I think… I don’t know what it is about me, but, you know, just the fact that the Bible is a book about Jesus and that we can know God in Jesus as the Bible is explained, it seems to me that there ought to be… I think it’s actually Packer who says, you know, if you just teach the Bible, if you just expound the Scriptures, you will discover that you’re being evangelistic whether you try to do it or not, in the sense that you’re setting forward Christ[1]—and also saying to people, you know, “You can come to know him, and by the way, he knows you.”

Jonathan: Yeah. So, in the book, you retell three stories that are found in the Gospels. So, there’s the woman at the well, the paralyzed man, and then the thief on the cross. Let’s take the woman at the well, ’cause that is—it’s an amazing story, a great encounter. Talk us through your thought process as you’ve read that story, you’ve studied it, and how you then share it with others.

Alistair: Well, you know, one time I think I tried to do that—I shouldn’t probably have done it—but I tried to do it as the woman in the first person. So I said, you know, “I come to the well in the middle of the day. I’m usually here by myself because of circumstances in my life. I’m not really well thought of.” And I went into it in that way. Because it is a fascinating encounter—that she is bemused initially by the fact that the stranger speaks to her and that, as the conversation progresses, she moves from “That you, a man, would speak to me” to “I can see that you’re a prophet sent from God.”[2] So the ball is advancing up the field.

In the back of my mind, all the time, I’m thinking about the person that doesn’t believe or doesn’t get it.

And I think there’s a way to teach that that misses the nuances of that—that fails to really pay attention to the immediacy of what is taking place, the idea of “Jesus is purposefully engaging with this lady.” In one sense, it’s happenstance. They’re at a well; she comes of her own free will, constrained by these other elements; and Jesus doesn’t say to her, initially, anything other, you know, than “Could I have a drink of water?”[3] You know? “Could I have a drink of water?”

But that’s enough for her: “What? You don’t… How… Why?”

“Ah, well, I could give you water. You’d never thirst again.”

She says, “Well, are you saying you’re greater than our father Jacob? He built this well. And furthermore, how’d you get it up out of there?”

It’s great. I mean, the irony in John’s Gospel is fantastic. And it’s possible to teach it in a way that misses the irony that is there.

Jonathan: Yeah. It’s an interesting sort of development, as you say. You know, she obviously has some background or knowledge or… But she’s also lived a life that means she has to come to the well at midday. And there’s also that moment where Jesus begins to probe a little bit in a subtle way—you know, “Go get your husband.”[4] She’s let her guard down a little bit, but she’s not dropped it all the way either. Why is it, when our lives are so messy—and everyone’s lives are so messy—that we’re so hesitant to admit and confess?

Alistair: Well, I think in her case, probably… Because I’ve often wondered: You know, when you read the text, you can’t tell the tone of voice. I mean, you don’t know whether she said, in a defiant way, “I have no husband,” or whether she said, “I… I don’t have a husband.”[5] You know? I’m assuming the latter—so, shame. Shame. A sense of shame in contexts that draw it out that may never happen in another context. I mean, this is a stranger talking to her. Why does she have to answer questions like that? But it’s not just a stranger that’s talking to her.

And the way in which it unfolds… And when I started out trying to understand that section in John, I was greatly influenced by the fellow who—an American guy whose name I’ve just forgotten, but he did a book on evangelism. I can’t remember what it was. But he says in there: In personal evangelism, one of the ways—if you’re going to be involved in personal work, you have to be able to deal with the interruptions, and this lady, what happens here, is an interruption. The more I’ve studied that, I don’t think it is an interruption. Because when he says to her, “No, you’ve said right, that you don’t have a husband; you’ve actually had a number of husbands, and you’re now living with a fellow”—again, tone of voice. It can’t have been judgmental. But just the awareness of being uncovered. Then comes the interruption. (Or maybe it doesn’t.) Then she says, you know, “Do you think you’re supposed to meet God in Gerasene, or do you think we meet him in Jerusalem?”[6] Why is she bringing that into the thing? Because presumably, she’s saying, “If there is any way that this is dealt with, I want to know where it’s dealt with.” So, you’re right. I think that there’s something going on inside there.

Jonathan: Yeah. Somebody once said to me, when you’re in conversation, you’ve got to know the difference between a red herring and a real hindrance.

Alistair: Yeah, that’s good.

Jonathan: And I think for her, it was a real hindrance. She wanted to genuinely know the answer. And I think you see that because of the response, when he replies to her, and you see the impact of “I’ve got to go tell my friends. I’m going to go get them.”[7] And so, yeah—interesting as we deal with our conversations, looking out for “What is this? Is this an issue for them? Or is it a distraction?”

Alistair: I mean, the point was well made by that fellow that—just as you say. You’re talking along those lines, and someone says, “Yeah, well, what about Noah and the ark?” You know, that is a red herring at this point. That’s not what she’s saying. Yeah: “If there’s something, somewhere, I need to know where it is.”

Jonathan: Yeah. And what you draw out in the book is that Jesus, he really knows us. And I think that’s something in our evangelism we perhaps need to be clearer on: that it isn’t that there’s just this authority that… Of course, Jesus is powerful and supreme, but he knows us intimately. He cares. And that’s displayed in the conversation he has with her.

Alistair: Exactly. Yeah, when we talk to our friends and our neighbors, we actually know things about them that they don’t know about themselves or they may not accept—for example, that God has set eternity in their hearts.[8] Oh, they may say, “But I believe when you’re dead, you’re dead,” but we know that that’s not true. And so, yeah, it’s a wonderful thing! I mean, you get it—it’s not in our purview at the moment, but the little guy who goes up the tree. ’Cause he’s in a similar situation: The people don’t really like him, and…

Jonathan: He’s got that itching, though. He wants… Yeah.

Alistair: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah! And who stops under the exact tree? And who calls him by name? How could he call him by name? “Zacchaeus, come down.”[9] Because he knows. And it’s an amazing thing: that the Bible is not a book that we learn to know as much as it is a book that shows us how much it knows about us.

Jonathan: Yes. Yeah. I think that’s what is interesting: that these three stories, they all reveal ourselves, our own situation, but also reveal Christ in that situation. So, the woman at the well: He knew her, and he knows us. And then, obviously, the paralyzed man, the man lowered through the roof: You draw out that Jesus knew his greatest need.

Alistair: Right.

The Bible is not a book that we learn to know as much as it is a book that shows us how much it knows about us.

Jonathan: Talk us, then, through this final one of the thief on the cross. Because, of course, that illustration and that crunch line of “He said I could come”—talk us through how you kind of studied that story and drew out that lesson.

Alistair: Well, like everybody else, I’ve always been fascinated by the fact that here, in the extremity of life, on the knife-edge of death, the sense of, you know, antagonism and just hatred can come out. It’s not that the closer people get to death—“I guess, well, we should back off, try to be nice. We’ve only got fifteen minutes left, you know.” No, they’re both at the same game. That’s the thing that’s striking. And then—I mean, this is the great question, isn’t it? How come the one guy says what he says? Well, the fact of the matter is that it’s a work of grace—that they both were in proximity to Jesus, they both had heard his cries from the cross, they both were just violent in their reaction. And then, all of a sudden, you know, “I heard the voice of Jesus say…”[10] You know, it’s that!

And the fact that this man first of all deals… He doesn’t speak directly to Jesus. First of all, he speaks to his friend.

Jonathan: Yeah, he does. The thief. Yeah.

Alistair: No, and he says, “Hey. You know, we’re up here.

Jonathan: “We’re getting what we deserve.”

Alistair: “We’re supposed to be up here. We’re getting what we deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he says, “Lord, would you remember me when you come into your kingdom?”[11] I mean, what an amazing request, and coming out of such a turnaround! You know, it’s a Damascus Road moment, but not on the Damascus Road. It’s “The light shines in[to] the darkness.”[12] We’re brought “out of darkness into his marvelous light”[13] by the light that shines upon us. And then the response of Jesus. Yeah! You know: “Today you will be with me.”[14]

Now, the rest of it is conjecture. I mean, that’s the thing that distresses me about this, you know? Now we go into a flight of fancy. But I think the salvation in it is—if I can use that phraseology—the salvation in it is that Jesus said, “Yeah. Today you will be with me in paradise.” So the only answer I’ve got is that.

Jonathan: If you’ll bear with me to pick up on the fancy side of it, I guess—of the story—you, in the clip, draw out, you know, “Hey, let’s go through the doctrine of justification,” or “What’s your view of church?”—these sorts of things.

Alistair: Right. Yeah.

Jonathan: Was that a conscious thought you were having at that moment because you see that as a real danger in the church today, or a danger outside of the church today?

Alistair: As you ask the question, I think it might have been almost subliminal, in light of what I said earlier: that here we are, in a very structured environment, where people are dressed in a certain way, and they’re very orthodox in their position concerning things and perhaps rather less than kind to people who might not be able to line up accordingly—I mean, like the average interview for church membership, you know. So: “Did you …? Have you …? Were you …?” You know, “How are you doing with this and that?” And you come through church membership saying, “No, I didn’t do that. No, I haven’t been praying very much. No, I… No.” And then they say, “Well, you know what? We’ll just put you on hold for the time being.”

But if the entry point in heaven poses those same questions and you have only one leg to stand on, one ground on which to take your stand, then it is in Christ alone, you know? I mean, that’s it. And that’s what that man had to say, because that was all he had to say. He had nothing else going for him save that he had asked Christ, essentially, to save him. And Jesus said, “Absolutely”—and immediately, and irrevocably. I mean, it’s truly amazing.

But the idea of the angel and everything and the supervising angel—part of that is because, you know, I went forward as a sixteen-year-old at a Billy Graham Crusade. I think I might have told you about that? And the person started to explain to me about how you become a Christian. I said, “No, no, no. I got that part.” And the guy didn’t know what to do, ’cause he was reading off a sheet. So he went away and got the supervisor, and the supervisor came back. He tried to work me through. I said, “You know what? I’m just going to go home and talk to my dad. I think that this is no good.” So part of that’s in my mind from the poor guy at the…

Jonathan: The guy at Billy Graham. He’s now been promoted to glory and got the job up there.

Alistair: Yeah, he’s trying to ease the passage—or prevent a wrong kind of belief.

Jonathan: Do you think we’re causing a problem, that we’re making it too difficult for people to come to Christ? ’Cause doctrine is important.

Alistair: Oh, no. Oh, absolutely.

Jonathan: Understanding those things—the Christian life, and the response, the action is—they’re all important. But, yeah.

Alistair: Well, you know… Well, let’s do it from church history. I mean, let’s take the poor soul that was preaching on the day that Spurgeon was converted. I mean, he didn’t have a sermon; he didn’t have anything going for him, except the serpent in the wilderness.[15] “Look!” He kept saying, “Look!” And when he ran out of material, he just said it more. And then he says to Spurgeon, “Young man! You! Do you look?” And Spurgeon gets out of there, and he walks up the road, and he goes, “I looked.”[16] “I looked.” “I looked to Jesus, and I found in him my [light], my sun,”[17] you know.

The same thing, whatever analogy we want to use—the wedding analogy I use often. You know, I said to people just, in fact, in the last few days, “Any of you got your marriage certificates here with you?” Nobody. “So how do you know you’re married? How do you feel about it? Are you feeling really strong? Are you feeling not so strong? Well, how did it go?” “Well, I said, ‘I do.’ I said, ‘I do.’” So, you stand before the Father alongside Jesus. The Father says to Jesus, “Son, will you have this sinner?” And Jesus says, “Yes, I died for her.” And then he says to you, “And you, will you have this Jesus?” Not asking how you feel. It’s volitional.

But it’s not in a vacuum. Actually, many people come to faith in Christ on the strength of very, very little background information, save that they know their need and they have discovered that Jesus is the one who meets their need. And when we say need, we’re not talking about the need for a promotion or need for better sanity but a deep-seated need.

Jonathan: A rescue.

Alistair: A rescue. Alienation from God. Who can bridge this gap? Jesus.

Jonathan: So, talk me, then, through the book. It’s a short book, but it’s going through these three stories, of which you retell the stories, but then you draw out the application of the gospel from each one, so that Jesus knew the woman, he knew the man’s greatest need—the paralyzed man—and he invites us to come. What’s your hope with a book like this?

Alistair: Well, first, that it will have wide circulation so that as many people as possible can be exposed to the very simplicity of it—and, hopefully, the clarity of it. I mean, each of these encounters are not hard to fathom. And when we open up our hearts to what’s taking place there, God may choose just to shine the light there as well and to say, “You know, I don’t think I’m the thief. I’m not the woman. I’m not the thing. But I do know that up until last Friday, I thought my biggest need was x. And this is a revolution in my life.”

So I hope that the book… And not only that—that it will find its way sort of miraculously—but that it will find its way because folks like myself say to somebody, “You know, you might find this helpful. I know you’ve been considering these things. Have you ever met Jesus?”

If you think back—and you’re too young to remember this, but, you know, the great Calvary Chapel movement in the ’60s, out on the West Coast, was simplicity. And if you pare back everything that was going on, it was essentially people saying to one another, “I have made a wonderful new friend, and I would love to introduce you to him.” And the people say, “Well, what’s the friend?” You say, “Well, it’s actually Jesus.” But that kind of entree. They’re not starting from some structured, you know, pragmatic delivery system. They’re just being themselves in the everyday events of life, the way that Jesus was being himself in the event at the well.

Jonathan: I like what you said there of, kind of—on one level, it’s a deliberate action, isn’t it? “I’m going to give this book to my friend,” or “I’m going to engage in conversation. I’m going to say, ‘I’ve met a friend who’s changed my life.’” But there’s also this mysterious God-work as well—which happened with the video of, like, you preached the gospel but perhaps never intended it to go viral in that sense. And there’s a supernatural work here that we can pray for…

Alistair: Right.

Jonathan: … and we can plan for, but it’s not something we can conjure up ourselves, either. It is a combination of God at work but being obedient to sharing him.

Alistair: Yeah. Yeah, it’s just the—I mean, it’s the parable of the sower, isn’t it? We sow the seed, and only God can make it grow.[18] But that’s not a call to indolence or to half-heartedness. It’s a call to zealous endeavor. You know, it’s the hardworking farmer that gets the good return from the work. And one of the things I hope the book will do: will put into the hands of people material that energizes them, perhaps for the first time in their lives, for ever really taking seriously the opportunity to be brave enough to say to one of their friends, “Hey! You want to read this little book?”

Jonathan: Yeah. I have a friend who says to me, “You have a unique circle of friends. I can’t reach your friends, but you can reach ’em.” And I can’t reach his friends, but he can. And to use that unique circle of friends.

I like that the book is a story, ’cause everyone loves story.

Alistair: Right.

We sow the seed, and only God can make it grow. But that’s not a call to indolence or to half-heartedness. It’s a call to zealous endeavor.

Jonathan: But it’s simple as well. In the book, Alistair retells the story. There’s then a QR code where people can watch the retelling, word for word, from the Bible. And then there’s the Bible passage there. In terms of people using it, you mentioned, individually, how might that look? What would people do?

Alistair: Well, in traveling, it’s good to have a couple of things in your briefcase with you. In that context.

Jonathan: I take tea bags and evangelistic books. They’re my two things.

Alistair: Yorkshire tea?

Jonathan: It is Yorkshire. Is there any other kind?

Alistair: Oh, yeah. No. That’s good. That’s good. You sound like Terry McCutcheon now—which is dangerous.

Jonathan: I don’t know whether that’s a good thing or not.

Alistair: Yeah, yeah. Well, no, I mean, the other way is, of course, where you have access in a restaurant, you have a clothing store, you have a church foyer where, without the things being pressed upon people, they are there and accessible and can be taken. So, for example, somebody can go to one of their local stores and say, “You know, I would like to put a dozen of these in here—your store. Do you have a place for this kind of thing?” In the sort of trendy little zones of our subculture…

Jonathan: Artisan coffee and bakery? Yeah.

Alistair: That stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But also, now, you go in the street, and you find that somebody’s constructed a little box that has books in it.

Jonathan: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Alistair: You know, it’s very sort of green, I think. And, yeah. So we could slip a few in there.

Jonathan: You’ve modeled this as a pastor, as well, at Parkside. You had resources available in the lobby, and guest services, you’ve given out things. Can you talk us through a few of those ideas that have perhaps either worked well or “Hey, we tried this; it didn’t work, but we switched it to this, and we were able to give out lots of resources”?

Alistair: Yeah. I think that the encouragement that I would give to people is: If you are confident in the resource—which is why I’m always much more confident in talking about the Gospel of John, which is out there on the table, than anything else, because I know, “Well, I can trust the Gospel of John.”

Jonathan: There’s no error there, so… Yeah.

Alistair: Yeah. But no, where you’ve got something like that that you can be enthusiastic about—I think if churches can get behind that as a supplement to whatever else they’re doing, then, yeah, we place them. And that way the person is in charge. Sometimes people don’t want stuff stuffed at them. But when they have the freedom to walk along and just pick it up… It’s a bit like radio, because in radio, you’re in complete control. You can turn it off; turn it on. Yeah.

Jonathan: So you’d lay it out?

Alistair: Lay them out!

Jonathan: Lay them out on tables… Kind of “Help yourself!”

Alistair: Yeah, all around the vestibule. Put them everywhere that people are passing, and allow the Lord to prompt them in whatever direction he chooses. Yeah, wide distribution means you can, you know, obviously reach more people.

Jonathan: Scatter the seeds, and pray that God will bring fruit.

Alistair: That’s it.

Jonathan: Let’s take us back, then, right to the purpose of this. What’s your heart longing from this book?

Alistair: Well, you know, we have marched under a little kind of saying for the last forty-two years: that we are committed, under God, to seeing unbelieving people becoming committed followers of Jesus. And that, of course, is “Only God opens blind eyes. Only God softens hard hearts.” But when we say… Not just in… The adjective’s important: to seeing unbelieving people—people who may have a cognizant awareness of Jesus as a man of Nazareth, whatever it might be, but who have never actually committed themselves or entrusted themselves to Christ—so we want to see unbelieving people become committed followers of Jesus. And part of that commitment, then, is in sharing Jesus with others. And therefore, all and any resources that help to that end are useful in our arsenal, as it were.

So that’s my hope: that someone somewhere will read the book, and they’ll write their own chapter at the end of the book, and they’ll tell their friends, you know, “My name is Joe,” or “My name is Mary. I’d never thought about the fact that that man thought that if he got his legs, he was fine. Because I’ve always thought if my marriage got fixed, I would be fine. But it got fixed, and I’m not fine. And I discovered that God put his finger on my need, and… Hey! Have a copy of the book.”

Jonathan: Yeah. Alistair, we’re so thankful that the Lord prompted you to give that illustration—that it got out. And, yeah, our prayer is that this book might be used.

You’ve been listening to a conversation with Alistair Begg, where we’ve been talking about The Man on the Middle Cross. You can get the book at truthforlife.org, where it’s available just for one dollar. Get it for yourself, for your own personal use; but as churches and organizations, see how you might be able to use it. Visit truthforlife.org, where you can get it just for one dollar.

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[1] J. I. Packer, A Quest for Godliness: The Puritan Vision of the Christian Life (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 1990), 22.

[2] John 4:9, 19 (paraphrased).

[3] John 4:7 (paraphrased).

[4] John 4:16 (paraphrased).

[5] John 4:17 (paraphrased).

[6] John 4:20 (paraphrased).

[7] See John 4:28–29.

[8] See Ecclesiastes 3:11.

[9] Luke 19:5 (NIV).

[10] Horatius Bonar, “I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say” (1846).

[11] Luke 23:40–42 (paraphrased).

[12] John 1:5 (ESV).

[13] 1 Peter 2:9 (ESV).

[14] Luke 23:43 (ESV).

[15] See Numbers 21:9; John 3:14–15.

[16] The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, vol. 1, 1834–1854 (Chicago: Fleming H. Revell, 1898), 106. Paraphrased.

[17] Bonar, “I Heard the Voice.”.

[18] See Matthew 13:1–23; Mark 4:1–20; Luke 8:4–15. See also 1 Corinthians 3:7.